Nicole Hurd: [00:00:42] Welcome everybody. I have a treat for you. This is the Knowledge for College podcast, and I have two College Advising Corps alums today who are going to inspire you and going to make us all kind of radiate love and light with the incredible inspiration they provide. Two folks I want you to meet. Ryan McBride is a graduate of the University of Michigan and was an adviser back in 2010. Ebonie Williams is a former adviser from the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill and one of the original four back in 2007. They are now leading our space in beautiful and exciting ways, and I can’t wait to amplify their voices and spend some time with them. I’m very, very excited about this.
Ryan and Ebonie, welcome to the podcast.
Ebonie Williams: [00:01:24] Thank you.
Nicole Hurd: [00:01:27] Ryan, let’s start with you. You came to us from the University of Michigan. Want to tell everybody why did you become a College Advising Corps adviser?
Ryan McBride: [00:01:37] That’s a great question. I originally didn’t know much about the college access space, but I had an academic adviser, Jeffrey Harold. I still keep in touch with him. He had gotten some information about the Corps starting at Michigan and he asked me, “What are your plans after college? Do you know what you’re going to do?” I was kind of vacillating between going to grad school, maybe studying education, maybe studying creative writing. I was kind of all over the place and he thought it would be a good fit for me so he just said, “You should apply. You should look into it, check it out.” I’d always had an interest in education and more broadly like maybe teaching or being a professor, and so I applied for it.
Shortly after applying, I saw that on the map of the state of Michigan, one of the cities or proposed cities was going to be Saginaw, my hometown. I had never really thought about going back home and when I saw that I was like, wow, that would be really cool if I somehow could be placed as an adviser in my hometown and maybe give back in that way.
And so, for me, after looking into the program and thinking about my goals and seeing that there was a school in Saginaw that was selected as a site, it just kind of made sense for me to really look into it and apply and pursue it.
Nicole Hurd: [00:02:53] Great.
Ebonie, you’re both pioneers. You were both first to be advisers in your chapters. Ebonie, why don’t you talk to us. Why did you become a Carolina Corps member?
Ebonie Williams: [00:03:04] Yeah, so I was a senior at Carolina coming up on spring semester and I wasn’t exactly sure what the next steps were going to be, but I knew one thing for sure: I love working with young people.
I knew that teaching was not my calling, but I wanted to do something to work with young people. And I remember my boyfriend at the time, husband now, he saw a posting for this new program that was starting at Carolina. I had a couple of friends, and I literally got this same post, this article sent to me like three different ways. So, I looked into it and I was like, whoa. And similar to Ryan, my former high school was on the list of high schools to be served. That was really inspiring because I think about my own high school/college process and just know that I did a lot of work individually to get to Carolina, but I didn’t have a lot of help. And how many students that I know could have gotten to the same place that I did had they had a little bit of extra help. And so, I applied to the program. Didn’t know exactly what it meant because it was brand new and completely life-changing experience from there. So that’s how I ended up being an adviser.
Nicole Hurd: [00:04:15] The two of you not only did an amazing job at your schools, but you actually lifted us all up in beautiful ways. I can remember, Ebonie, going with you to Texas to testify in front of the commissioner and the board to get us into Texas, and we now have 120 plus advisers in Texas. Ryan, I will never be able to forget the moment that you and I got to go to the White House to meet President Obama and Mrs. Obama, and I actually really lost my cool in front of you. I did some serious fangirling, so sorry that your CEO was not a little bit more together that day. You both got a chance to represent the Corps in really beautiful ways that made a real impact.
As we’re in this pandemic and people at Michigan, Carolina, our other university partners are thinking about doing this, I’m going to have you all play recruiters for a second. What would you say to somebody who’s in their senior year, thinking about applying to the Corps, thinking about this opportunity? What would you say to them? What was the most impactful thing about being an adviser? Ebonie,
Ebonie Williams: [00:05:17] So I will say, the tangible good that I was able to see my work helping the young people that I was helping. And what I mean by that is that it’s not about me. It’s about the young people that we are serving. But it was so rewarding and changed my life to be able to see, wow, with just a little extra care, a little extra time, a little extra commitment, there are some amazing young people in these schools that are unfortunately, our counselors are overworked. And we were able to truly have an impact as an adviser.
And so, I think about if you’re a senior and you’re thinking about what you want to do next, just what is the impact you want to have and what is the tangible good you want to put into this world? And I will say helping a young person truly change the trajectory of their life, I think that was the biggest thing for me. Wow, we’re kind of like superheroes for real. We are helping young people make critical decisions and walking alongside these beautiful young minds and learning from them and they’re learning from us to make decisions that are going to change the trajectory of their lives, their family lives, and sometimes for the generations to come. If that’s the type of work you’re looking to do, join the Corps.
Nicole Hurd: [00:06:34] Great. Ryan, do you have any thoughts about why this work is important or what advice you would give to someone who’s pulling in this direction?
Ryan McBride: [00:06:44] Absolutely, yeah. I would echo everything Ebonie said about the long-term potential impact that you can have. Even 10 years later, I have students that reach out to me who just let me know, “Hey, I’m starting my master’s program or starting this new career.” Or I have a couple students in Ph.D. programs now. You really get a chance to see the short-term impact you’re having, but also the long-term impact on helping students gain access to opportunities, both in education and career wise.
But also, on a practical level, I think I learned a lot of new skills in this role because you’re doing so many different things and you’re wearing many hats, so you’re getting experience in… And some of this I didn’t even realize until later, in later jobs or positions, but you’re getting hands-on project management experience, you’re doing some partnership development with different organizations and people in the community, a lot of public speaking, presentation, training, and development experiences.
I look back on this role and there were so many things that I did in this job that were really foundational to other things that I’ve been able to do. It was a great training ground for being able to sample a lot of different types of work, to see what you like, what you may not like as much, to maybe see what you’re good at that you didn’t know you had as much skill in. Those are some things that come to mind too.
Nicole Hurd: [00:08:04] Awesome. I think one of our core values is grace and humility, and I love the fact that the advisers make this about their students, not about themselves. Part of that humility sometimes is not recognizing all the skills you do gain. There’s an amazing amount of just resilience and creativity and persistence and collaboration. Soft skills we call them. I don’t know why we call them soft skills because I actually don’t think they’re soft. I think they’re actually critical and hard to acquire sometimes. I think part of being an adviser is really to build muscle that I’m not sure you actually realize you’re building while you’re doing it, to your point, Ryan.
The other thing during this pandemic that’s really important to me is, we’re having a hard time building community because community is being done virtually right now. And so instead of doing our adviser summit—which you both were at summits and saw all the advisers together—this year, we’re going to be 900 people in little boxes on screens. And so, I want to just give you both a chance, as really outstanding leaders in our alumni group, to talk to the advisers who are finishing up about what was your journey in terms of where are you now and what was next? And what advice do you have for them as they start to pivot to the next opportunity in their careers?
Ebonie Williams: [00:09:28] One thing I just want to loop back to around with it. I completely agree. I still draw on skills that I learned as an adviser in business 14 years later now. Just wanted to double down on that point.
I would say my journey after the Advising Corps was really a journey of, I know I still love this aspect of college access and success and where do I want to find myself on that spectrum? And when I first finished the Corps, I found myself wanting to do more of the higher ed and success, so I went and got my degree at NC State in higher education administration and spent some time working on the higher ed front because again, on the trajectory of this journey for young people, all of it’s important, both the access to college and the success while in there. And then I realized that I want to go back to more of the college access part. So, since about 2013, I left and went back to the college access aspect, and in my most recent role, I currently work with One Goal, which is a college access organization, and I’m the Senior Director for Post-Secondary Program and Partnerships, which is really exciting because it gives me the opportunity to, one, I lead a team that really helps to support our students through whatever their post-secondary pathway may be. And I get the opportunity to make and build partnerships for our students to make sure they have viable places to go and actually be successful.
I will also share that I am currently on maternity leave and when I finished my maternity leave, I will be exiting One Goal. And my newest role—this is not news, it’s not like it’s a surprise to One Goal, everyone already knows—but my newest role, I will be Chief of Staff for 4.0 Schools.
I think about the ways that having been an adviser just helped me to, like Ryan was saying, you get to dabble in a lot of different aspects and get a lot of different skills such that 14 years later, I was able to look at my career and think about, where is it that I want to go next with my career? Do I want to be on a programmatic front? Do I want to do development? Do I want to be more of a synergy between the two of those? And I found for myself, that’s where I wanted to lie, which is being at the crux of the program and the development and really working alongside the CEO to make success for that. So, I’ll be transitioning into that space at the end of March. And again, I still credit the Advising Corps as a part of the success that I have had in my career and some of the skills that I’ve learned.
Nicole Hurd: [00:12:08] Ebonie, congratulations on your gorgeous family. And also congratulations on your new job. There’s lots to celebrate in the Williams household right now.
Ryan, do you want to talk about your kind of post-Corps journey and where you are now?
Ryan McBride: [00:12:22] Sure. Similar to Ebonie, I actually, after the Corps, went back and did a master’s in higher ed and really thought that I wanted to stay in the higher ed space. I was in higher ed for about three years, doing community outreach work at first and then I spent about a year as an academic adviser and really enjoyed the higher ed space, but personally, I just wanted to change to try something different outside of the state of Michigan. And so, I had to broaden my search since I wanted to move out of state and move to a bigger city.
I landed in DC for about two years at the College Success Foundation, where I was working at the intersection between philanthropy and college access to a certain extent. In that role, I basically provided advising support and scholarship disbursement to students who are funded by our foundation and really enjoyed that work.
Hadn’t really planned to leave DC, but I was presented with an opportunity in New York to work for the New York City Department of Education in 2017. In that role, I was working as a college planning manager. At the time, Mayor de Blasio in New York City, he had this really ambitious equity and excellence agenda and so he had multiple college access initiatives that the city was funding city-wide. At that time, I was working on an initiative called College Access for All – Middle School. Every single middle school in New York City—like 505, 510 middle schools or so—received funding to take students on college visits, provide workshops and other college readiness support. I was able to do that for two years. Really, really enjoyed it. Had a great time, but I wanted to be in a role where I would be able to provide more training and professional development.
And so now for maybe the last year and a half, I’ve been working for an organization called New Tech Network as a Continuous Improvement and College Access Coach. New Tech Network is essentially a national network of schools across the country. We have 250 schools across 25 states. And in my role, I basically provide training, professional development, and coaching to school leaders to essentially help them improve their college readiness supports.
I’ve kind of bounced around the pipeline—higher ed, K-12, philanthropy—but the common thread has been supporting students in college access and success at some point in the pipeline.
Nicole Hurd: [00:14:59] Ryan, what I love about your story is that it’s not always linear. I think we spend a lot of time putting pressure on ourselves. We have to have these like perfectly linear careers. It’s higher ed and it’s always higher ed. You start here and the ending is, I don’t know what—you’re chancellor, you’re president, you’re dean, you’re professor, you’re whatever—but there’s these very kind of step ladder ways of looking at life. And for all of us, that’s not really how it happens. It’s actually a lot more a matter of opportunity and luck and skill and following your heart and following your head. I look at my own career and there’s nothing particularly linear about it and I wouldn’t change a thing.
So, I think what I love about both of you sharing your stories is hopefully it’ll inspire advisers to take some pressure off and know that, if you’re going to graduate school, that’s great. And if you love it and you stay in that space, that’s fine and that’s awesome and we’ll all be here to support you. And if you decide to pivot, that’s great too. I would never recommend a Ph.D. in religious studies as the first step in nonprofit national scaling management, but I also don’t regret the fact that I did it. I think it’s really about being nimble and following your head and your heart in ways that lift you up and lift the people around you up so that you can make a contribution. And I love that about both of you.
I want to talk to you all… the College Advising Corps is in this incredibly important moment as an organization. And as the CEO, I want you both to hold me to account. We’re in a moment where I think we’re having some long overdue and important conversations about racial equity, about racial injustice, and about how we lift diverse voices, how we create pipelines of talent, how we really start to lean in. Diversity, equity and inclusion is absolutely in College Advising Corps’ DNA, and I’m incredibly proud of how many students we’ve served and how many of them have been people of color and how many advisers we’ve had and how many of them have been people of color. But I’m also aware every organization has blind spots and I’m also aware we can always get better.
Can you both talk to me about how CAC fits into your thoughts about racial justice and what you want to see as an alum or what you want to see in the world? As you sit as young leaders in the education space, what is your hope or your dream? Or where are you leaning in on these issues right now when your voices are so important? I’m so glad you both agreed to be with me today, but want to give me some thoughts about that?
Ebonie Williams: [00:17:34] Where we are as a society—and I’m just leaning in, thinking about racial justice, DEI—one of the biggest things that seems to be coming to light for majority communities that may not have had the opportunities or just have willfully decided to ignore some of the injustices that are happening, is that there’s just so much talent and beauty and skill in communities of color and that sometimes it’s going to show up in a different way. Similar to what you were saying, Nicole, about our paths and our career—there are ups and downs, there’s ebb and flow, there’s peaks and valleys, there’s setbacks and steps forward. Sometimes the skills that people of color have or bring to the table are not going to look the cookie-cutter experiences that the majority community have had. And that’s just literally because of the systematic racism sometimes and just the barriers that are set forth in our country.
And so what I want to see and would love to see from the Advising Corps is as we’re recruiting advisers, as we are working with the students, being sure to honor the different ways that leadership shows up or honor the different ways that creativity, entrepreneurship, all of those skills show up. And being sure that it’s not, if you don’t fit in this very prescribed box of what we think leadership is, then you’re not going to be a great adviser. Because sometimes someone may shine in a particular area and be a great adviser to help change the lives of some young people. And maybe their grades or whatever the case…
Now I’ll say, I don’t know exactly the criteria of being an adviser nowadays, but whatever the case, that’s something that I would love to see in the Advising Corps because there’s the potential to change, again the trajectory of a lot of young people’s lives in terms of high school students, but also the young college students that the Advising Corps gives this opportunity to change their lives. And just want to make sure that how we are looking at talent and skills is outside of the box.
Nicole Hurd: [00:19:48] Ebonie, I love that you said that because it’s one of those things where I do think we should hold ourselves to account. The reality is right now, all the active College Advising Corps chapters are at predominantly white institutions that tend to be highly elite schools. And when you’re from that highly elite space, you sometimes have these gigantic blind spots, whether they’re willful or not, around community college, around the diversity in higher ed, around non-traditional paths, around really seeing talent in all sorts of ways as you’re calling us to do.
One of the things I’m really proud about CAC is we’re actually sending more kids to community college than to four-year schools and I don’t think people realize that. They think, “Oh, these great advisers who are coming from Michigan and Carolina. They could only be sending kids to Michigan and Carolina.” We’re actually sending students to all sorts of different institutions. And we will this year have our first HBCU chapter at North Carolina A&T. So, I think you calling us to think about diversity in impact and seeing talent everywhere is incredibly important.
The other thing I would say is, we recently got this data—College Advising Corps has helped over 30,000 students go to HBCUs; we’ve helped over 120,000 students go to HSIs. And so again, I think your call to tell our story better and to continue to uplift talent wherever it is, Ebonie, I appreciate you calling us on that because I think that’s a space where again, we can always do better, and we need to be attentive to it.
Ryan, do you have thoughts about how we can be better or what your hopes are for both CAC and the world at large right now as we’re in this moment?
Ryan McBride: [00:21:25] Definitely, yeah. I would say that just having gone through the Corps, social justice and liberation is really at the core of the work that you’re doing. I think the thing that comes to mind for me is that when I’m training school leaders and principals and counselors, we talk a lot about asset-based thinking and addressing any deficit-based ideas and thoughts that we have. I think the main thing is that as we’re doing this work, we have to constantly, just on a personal level, really think about where our thoughts are, aligning ourselves with those asset-based thoughts about our students and about the work that we do with them. Because ultimately if we’re trying to change systems or trying to change organizations or trying to make that positive change, it really kind of starts on the personal level.
So, I think about it from that perspective—making sure that we’re always interrogating our own biases, our internal implicit biases, things of that nature, to align our thinking with where we’re trying to go. So those are my thoughts. Starting on the personal level and then kind of moving outward.
Nicole Hurd: [00:22:36] I think, Ryan, you’re picking up on something really important, which is having the advisers and having all of us find space. Especially our advisers of color, to have space to do that kind of personal radiating and then to start having that radiate out to their students and to other advisers and then radiate out to their communities. Ebonie used the word, “shine.” I think it’s really important for advisers to find that space to shine personally and then let that love and light and opportunity—you used the phrase social justice, that example—let it kind of wash over everybody and show us a better way of doing things and a better way to be inclusive and a better way to listen.
I really appreciate both of you holding me and holding the Advising Corps to account as we consider, how do we go through this and be better? How do we go through this and be more inclusive? How do we go through this and really make sure that we’re aligned with our values? And it’s not just about the talk, it’s about the walk, right? Are we really showing up this way every day?
I want to pivot a little bit. The advisers that are listening to this, I love asking this question to all advisers, both current and alums. Do you want to both share a favorite moment? Something that when you have a rough day or you are having that hard time with your own radiating, it’s something you go back to that puts a smile on your face. Or frankly, this is what it does for me. I think about the two of you, and I’m not just saying this because you’re on the podcast, but you are two people that when I have a bad day, I think about—the reason why you got up this morning is because you’re surrounded by amazing people who motivate you like Ebonie and Ryan, so let’s get up and do this.
Will you two want to share a favorite moment or what keeps you going when you think back at your Advising Corps time?
Ebonie Williams: [00:24:36] I’ll share two moments and then a current thing that kind of continues to keep me going. One, when I was an adviser, I was at Hillside and Southern Durham High Schools in Durham, North Carolina. And I remember the first time at Southern Durham one of my students got the Park Scholarship at NC State and we just lost it, because we thought it was a long shot for him. And of course, this is my first year as an adviser so having been a college student, I didn’t really know a lot about different scholarships and various places, so once I found out about it and knew his interest in going to NC State, we applied. And when he received it, it was just such a glorious win for all of us and we were just all so excited, so happy to celebrate him. So that was something that I can see, even when things are a long shot, still go after it, still try. You truly never know.
I think the second memory is the first Decision Day that I hosted at Hillside High School and just the amount of fun we had. We didn’t have a DJ. We, I guess, plugged up an iPod back then. Plugged up an iPod and had food and the kids brought their letters and it was just truly the most fun. And I think being sure to incorporate at that time students that were going to community college and military really uplifted them and sent the message that it’s about having a plan. It’s about having some type of post-secondary plan and not just about four-year college. That was really exciting.
And then I think the current thing that just still keeps me motivated is I follow a number of my students from my first year on Instagram and to see them now, they’re like mothers and fathers and lawyers and doctors. Recently, one of my former students, he got elected to the South Carolina State Senate. And so just to see those types of things are like, whoa! And not to say, clearly, that I am the cause of that, but to see the outcomes of your students on a day-to-day basis still is truly motivating.
So those are the memories and the current thing that still helps to keep me motivated.
Nicole Hurd: [00:26:48] Ebonie, I love the fact that you’re reminding us the importance of celebrating. I think again, I know myself and I know a lot of alums and advisers. It’s that constantly need—you got to do more, you got to do more, there’s always more work to do, there’s always so much to do. And you forget to stop and celebrate. And some of the best moments frankly are the moments when we do stop and reflect and celebrate. So, thank you for sharing those with us.
Ryan, do you have some favorite memories?
Ryan McBride: [00:27:14] Definitely, yeah. A couple that come to mind. I guess the first one that comes to mind is I had a student, I think she graduated my second year in the Corps, but I had known her since I was back in my hometown. I had known her since she was five or six because her grandfather was kind of a community leader. He would get us involved in different activities and different academic competitions and he would always bring his granddaughter along. And so, by the time I went back to being an adviser, she was a junior in high school and her name was Andrea Pugh and she just was doing really amazing thing. She was the first student, I think, in our school history to win the Gates Scholarship, the Gates Millennium Scholarship. Everybody was super excited for her. Like Ebonie mentioned, just to see their progress. She’s doing Ph.D. now in, I think, environmental science at Florida A&M University, so just to see her progress over time and some of the great things she’s been able to do, it was rewarding to see that back then, but then to see her continue and many other students, it’s just really great.
Also, Dr. Hurd knows about the Highway to College program that we had at Saginaw High School. It was basically like a passport booklet every student could receive and the more college action steps that they accumulated, they were able to get stamps in their passport. At the end of the year, we basically participated in the award ceremony at the school and students who had the most college access stamps in their passport were able to get prizes. And to me, it was super rewarding to see the community get involved. We had corporations and local businesses that said, “Hey, we heard about this program. We want to donate 10 graphing calculators,” or, “We want to donate a computer,” or whatever it might be. It was cool to see the community come together and rally around college access for the school. We had so many students that received really big prizes. With the budget I had, there were certain things that I could afford, but it was cool to see the community sort of take ownership and say, “Hey, we’re bought in. We want to get involved. We want to show love and reward students for taking college action steps.” And they were just stepping up left and right. So that was definitely a high point just to see that the work sort of spread beyond just my role to like other people in the community getting involved.
Nicole Hurd: [00:29:45] Ryan, I love that story. And I love the fact that you reminded us, back to who we are as an organization, that we do this in profound community. And whether it’s the school community or the community around the school, I just love the idea that none of us are alone in this. When you activate the community and they also see the talent and the potential in their students, that’s when the magic happens. That when you really have those moments when we’re all in this together, that’s when the magic happens. So, thank you for that memory. It’s inspiring to think about.
We’re going to wrap up, but just want to thank you both. I think when we started the College Advising Corps, there was always this dual vision. One was to get as many first-generation, low-income, and underrepresented students to and through college as possible, and we’re on our march to a million students by 2025. But the other part of this, and I would argue is equally important and maybe in some ways is more important, was to really help launch a new generation of leaders, the advisers themselves. To create these pipelines of diverse talent, to create these pipelines of people who understood social justice, who understood community engagement, who understood how to make the world a better place, and frankly, would become leaders. That they would occupy space in education or in the private sector or in government or whatever, and make sure that we all know if different people are sitting in different seats, we’d have different decisions. Really making sure that those advisers got a chance to become leaders. Like I said, I can’t imagine two better leaders than the two of you. You both inspire me all the time.
So, as we wrap up, any last things you want to say to our viewers, your fellow advisers, your CAC community and family as we head out? Ebonie, any last thoughts?
Ebonie Williams: [00:31:36] Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. And I say that as an alumni. And I also say it as an alumni, as a parent that will one day have students going through the college process, as a community leader, and as a supporter of you all. I know the work you do. I know the behind-the-scenes. A lot of things are unseen, sometimes unappreciated. I know there’s sometimes difficulty on your campuses. All the great work that you’re trying to do. There’s sometimes campus politics. There’s so many things that are at play, but I just want to say thank you. To keep charging on, especially in this unprecedented world that we’re living in right now. I know this is not exactly what you thought when you signed up for it or the number of virtual interactions and trying to support students through not only just the college process, but I’m sure you all are turning into social, emotional support. And so, I just want to say, thank you. And I just lastly want to say, take care of yourself. To be sure that you do sometimes stop to celebrate the wins, celebrate yourself. Whether it’s journaling, taking pictures, remember this experience because it is going to change your life for the years to come. Just go headfirst into everything you’re doing. Give yourself over to it while also making sure to take care of yourself.
So, I say, thank you, take care of yourself, and charge on.
Nicole Hurd: [00:33:08] Thanks, Ebonie. That’s great advice.
Ryan, any final thoughts?
Ryan McBride: [00:33:12] Definitely. First off, thanks again, Dr. Hurd, for the opportunity to participate. And to the advisers, I would echo what Ebonie said. Thank you for the work that you do, for the vision that you have, for the many obstacles that you encounter that you keep pushing through.
The only advice I would offer is to really leverage the power of your network. Your adviser network. I still keep in touch with people from the Corps at my university, but also folks that I met at the convenings or the summits, and they’re doing amazing things. We’ve been able to connect and share ideas and share job opportunities, and really just encourage each other even after the Corps. It’s been beautiful to see the different directions people have gone in. Some of us have, knowing each other from the Corps, ended up in the same city and caught up and been able to share ideas and work on things together. So, I would say really tap into that network. Stay engaged with the folks that you’ve been able to meet and work with. You never know where it might lead or what opportunities you can connect each other to.
Nicole Hurd: [00:34:21] Thank you for that, Ryan. Ryan, Ebony. I’m so grateful for you to do this because one of the things I’ve been doing during this pandemic is having weekly office hours, and a lot of times first-year advisers show up during office hours. And it’s so strange. They were recruited during the pandemic. Then they had their summer training during the pandemic. Now they’ve been in school during the pandemic. And so, they’ve not even met their other advisers in their Corps in person, let alone the summit where they would’ve met all their colleagues from across the country.
And so, this podcast is going to give the chance for them to meet the two of you and to actually start to extend the CAC family. And I know when they hear it, they’re going to be asking me for your email contacts and I will give them out because you are both amazing mentors and champions. But again, just want to thank you both for spending some time making sure that our CAC family’s well and giving some great advice and just radiating the love and light and opportunity and believing everybody has potential. Like I said, I find you both to be just absolutely guiding lights of inspiration as we continue to do this work. So thank you both for this time. Thank you all for watching and listening. This is the Knowledge for College podcast and we’ll see you next time.